I’m fine with Dirk-money winning the MVP

May 20, 2007 at 9:54 am | Posted in basketball, lee | 46 Comments

I hate two things about the MVP award:
1) When people say that the MVP should go to the best player on the best team. I don’t get why. Obviously, there are times when the best player is on the best team, but more often, the best team is the best team because of the best compilation of players, not because of one player. Especially these days with “parity” being all the rage. This isn’t just an NBA problem. Every sport has experts that like to use this scientific approach to naming the Most Valuable Player.
2) Problem number two seems to only be an NBA problem. For now. It makes me sick when a star player steps to the the free throw line while on their homecourt, the fans start chanting M-V-P! M-V-P! M-V-P! They should know that their player isn’t a MVP in most cases.

Anyway, Dirk Nowitski won the MVP and I have no problem with it.

Why?

He might as well win it because he was as qualified as anyone else.

I’m convinced that Tim Duncan is the best player in the NBA and does more to help his team win than anyone.  But, the discussion for MVP consisted only of Dirk and Nash, so I’ll consider them the only two candidates.

The argument that I have heard most is that without Nash the team falls apart.  I agree, but what about the Mavericks without Dirk?  Which of the following list of role players would you rather have?:

Maurice Ager, Greg Buckner, Austin Croshere, Erick Dampier, DeSagana Diop, Devean George, Devin Harris, Josh Howard, Didier Ilunga-Mbenga, Pops Mensah-Bonsu, Jerry Stackhouse, Jason Terry

or

Marcus Banks, Leandro Barbosa, Raja Bell, Pat Burke, Boris Diaw, James Jones, Jumaine Jones, Shawn Marion, Sean Marks, Eric Piatkowski, Jalen Rose, Amare Stoudamire, Kurt Thomas

Personally, I’d choose the second group.  Even if you’d prefer the first group, it isn’t by much, meaning that Dirk’s team is as lost without him as Nash’s.

Another reason that people think Nash is more deserving is statistics.  Nash has put up amazing statistics over the last few years in Phoenix, but I’ve become less impressed with them over the last few weeks.  During the Jazz-Warriors series, I noticed that Deron Williams had a few amazing statistic games despite not even playing great.  So did a few other Jazz players (Slambidunktrous, Kirilenko).  Likewise with the entire Golden State team.  Just like the Jazz and Warriors were playing an uptempo style that increases stats, Nash plays for a team whose style is MADE to get amazing stats, especially for a PG.

The third thing people point at for why Dirk shouldn’t be the MVP is his team’s early exit from this year’s playoffs. It is said that the MVP shouldn’t be voted on until after the playoffs are over so that their playoff performance can be factored in. Instead, I think that more emphasis should be placed on winning the Finals MVP. Maybe the name can be changed to the Playoff MVP and a All-Playoff Team can be named too. While I’m on this, a lot more emphasis should be place on being the best team of the regular season. To me, winning the most games over an 82-game period is more impressive than winning a two-month long playoff tournament.

The MVP should go the the player who had the best season. Statistics, team wins, and impact on games should all be part of what is factored into the decision. This year, Dirk’s season was as impressive and Nash’s. If Nash would have won, I’d feel the same as I do about Dirk-money winning.

Conference Finals Predictions

    Jazz/Spurs

– Even if the Jazz don’t win, this series could be huge for them. For the last seven or eight years, the Spurs have owned the Jazz. Utah’s luck has improved over the last few years by winning a few games at home, but they still can’t win in San Antonio (they haven’t won there since before the war), even though the Spurs fans aren’t the most intimidating. A few wins, especially one on the road could lessen the mental edge the Spurs have over the Jazz. What the Jazz have going for them is their youth and rest. This could help them steal Game One or make them more fresh if the series goes six or seven games.
Spurs in 7

    Cavaliers/Pistons

– Sasha Pavlovic is one of my favorite players in the NBA, but I can’t stand to watch the Cavs play because it reminds me that the Jazz gave him away. The Cavs don’t have a chance to win this series.
Pistons in 5 (and don’t be surprised it is 4)

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  1. L, I just need you to know that I disagree with most, though not all, of everything you just wrote and found it highly inaccurate and misinformed. But that I still think we should date if you’re “gaym.”

  2. i agree that the mvp is and should be a regular season award and nothing that happens in the playoffs should have any bearing on the mvp. and having the best record in the regular season is very impressive.
    this is one of the reasons i find european soccer so appealing–you win a cup if you have the best record at the end of the regular season. but there are also multiple tournament cups played throughout the season (the carling and fa cup in england) plus if you finish high enough in your league in the regular season, the next year you can qualify for the uefa champions league. in short, the top clubs in europe can win as many as five trophies in a single year. no one ever does because it’s nearly impossible, but that just means you never have to hear about a team being world champions–a phrase that is all over american sports and is totally ridiculous–except after the world cup.

  3. D-cent, Maybe your problem is that you are too in love with Steve Nash. You and everyone else. Don’t get me wrong, he’s cool – he’s one of my favorite players in the league right now. It’s just that too many people have these eternal crushes on him and it messes with their judgement. I think you might be one of these people.

    Fact is, Dirk had an incredible season. Even if you think Nash’s was better, which maybe it was, it wasn’t by much. Therefore, it can’t be considered a sham that Dirk won.

  4. Brian- I love the NCAA tournament and it is one of my favorite times of the year, but I’m always a little bit bugged because the best team rarely wins, because of the single-elimination format. NCAA football is great because the regular season is the only thing that matters. Every single week is crucial, because if a team drops a game, it has huge consequences.

  5. Dork Nowtizki (Snap):
    PPG: 24.6 (10th)
    RPG: 8.9 (13th)
    BPG: 0.79
    APG: 2.3
    SPG: 0.7
    Salary: $15,101,622.00

    Baron Davis:
    PPG: 20.1 (19th)
    RPG: 4.4
    BPG: 0.5
    APG: 8.1 (5th)
    SPG: 2.14 (1st)
    Salary: $15,070,000

    Jason Kidd:
    PPG: 13.0
    RPG: 8.2 (17th)
    BPG: 0.3
    APG: 9.2 (3rd)
    SPG: 1.6 (12th)
    Salary: $18,084,000

    Steve Nash:
    PPG: 18.6 (26th)
    RPG: 3.5
    BPG: 0.1
    APG: 11.6 (1st)
    SPG: 0.8
    Salary: $10,500,000

    Tim Duncan:
    PPG: 20.0 (20th)
    RPG: 10.6 (7th)
    BPG: 2.38 (5th)
    APG: 3.4 (49th)
    SPG: 0.8
    Salary: $17,429,673

    Amare Stoudamire:
    PPG: 20.4 (17th)
    RPG: 9.6 (9th)
    BPG: 1.34 (23rd)
    APG: 1.0
    SPG: 1.0 (tied for 48th)
    Salary: $12,455,000

    Kobe Bryant:
    PPG: 31.6 (1st)
    RPG: 5.7 (47th)
    BPG: 0.5
    APG: 5.4 (22nd)
    SPG: 1.4 (17th)
    Salary: $17,718,750

    Shawn Marion:
    PPG: 17.5 (34th)
    RPG: 9.8 (8th)
    BPG: 1.5 (21st)
    APG: 1.7
    SPG: 2.0 (6th)
    Salary: $15,070,000

    Leandro Barbosa:
    PPG: 18.1 (31st)
    RPG: 2.7
    BPG: 0.2
    APG: 4.0 (39th)
    SPG: 1.2 (28th)
    Salary: $1,679,733

    Marcus Camby:
    PPG: 11.2
    RPG: 11.7 (5th)
    BPG: 3.3 (1st)
    APG: 3.2 (40% higher than Nowitzki)
    SPG: 1.2 (tied for 28th)
    Salary: $8,800,000

  6. I actually don’t even like Steve Nash. Except for when he’s completely taking control of 9 other players on the court. That’s when I love Steve Nash. Because he does that, like no one else. Just not always. And his season wasn’t that impressive.

    It’s just a hell of a lot easier to make the argument that he’s a more MVP to the Suns than Now is to the Mavericks.

    Nash is too clumsy a ball-handler for my tastes, and his penetrate vs. dish methods make me yell at the screen sometimes.

    I really don’t know where you’re coming from when you keep saying that Dirk had an incredible season. His team sure as H E L L did, but he was lackluster and trivially above average at best. In case you’re looking at the wrong numbers, I’ve posted his stats above.

    I just posted Barbosa’s because I felt like it. In a few years, when he’s the starting PG for some lucky team, it’ll be exciting to watch his numbers multiply. If he refined his game a little, Barbosa could seriously get to an ‘MVP’-esque level. All-star all the way.

    Anyway, I would’ve easily picked Marcus Camby as this year’s MVP (assuming that playoffs weren’t a part of the decision), and also given his ass a 90% pay raise. He’s so overshadowed by Iverson and Carmello that no one even comprehends that he’s perhaps the best player in the league. Giving Camby the MVP, however, on merits of his non-offensive prowess, would’ve inclined me to make a new variable award in the NBA called Offensive Player of the Year. Then, in instances like this, when a player wins for non-offense, instead of a Defensive POTY award, it becomes offense, which I then would’ve given to Bryant hands down. How could you not with an 81 point performance?

    If we even want to just look at the stats above, all of the following players are more deserving of the MVP award than Nowitzki is:

    1. Marcus Camby
    2. Shawn Marion
    3. Amare Stoudamire
    4. Jason Kidd
    5. Baron Davis
    6. Tim Duncan

    If you want to play the “affect on the team’s success” card, look DIRECTLY TO BARON DAVIS. He TOOK his team to the playoffs. 2nd only to maybe Duncan or Camby (arguable).

    Anyway, the point is, Nowitzki is a 7’0″ FORWARD. His numbers are EMBARRASSING with that phenomenal advantage. With his speed and mismatches, he should be setting new NBA records in rebounds and shot blocking, and probably intercepted passes. But guess what? He’s not even leading in them. Or in ANYTHING. A 24.6 PPG average isn’t really even an above average number. It’s all about who the coach decides will score. Tom Chambers averages almost 30 points a game one season, Jeff Hornacek broke 20. Bottom line: Everybody sign my petition to revoke Nowitzki’s MVP award and give it to anyone else in the world. My vote is Camby.

  7. why did you list the players salaries along side their stats? and how do i compare those stats, especially given that i have only seen the city and the nets play once during the regular season (both losses)? and wasn’t baron injured for a while? and are you saying dirk shouldn’t win it because he’s seven feet tall? if the mvp award is maximizing your physical potential then iverson should win hands down every year. that guys not even six-feet tall and maybe weighs 160 but dominates, not only the perimeter, but in the paint. and shouldn’t kobe be your mvp since he’s almost as good a defensive player as camby (relative to the positions they play) and an immensely better offensive player? and don’t you have to figure in different styles of play? like denver scores a lot and gets a lot of rebounds because they speed up the game. so how do we compare camby’s stats with duncan’s? and how can you compare scoring from different eras? everybody averaged in the high twenties early thirties back then.

    my point, again, is this is the mvp is totally subjective.

  8. Hhhahahaahahhahahaha, good one Brian. That’s the funniest thing I’ve read this week.

    – J-Horn

  9. I ain’t think he was kidding, J.

    Three words Brian,
    1. Grow
    2. Up
    3. Again.

    I listed their salaries for the people that could appreciate viewing them. If that’s not you, just try to be mature about it and move on.

    Also, it would be totally awesome if you tried reading what I’ve written before responding to it?

    It sounds like you’re against all statistical comparison and analysis in general. Or, in other words, like you’re a hybrid Amish Luddite.

    Sidenote: Iversong IS 6 feet tall, and weighs in at 165 lbs. (source NBA.com)

    And you’re so far off that it’s not even funny anymore. What’s up with all of these sensationalist statements?

    You: “…shouldn’t kobe be your mvp since he’s almost as good a defensive player as camby (relative to the positions they play)…”.

    Me: WTHFS???!?!?!? What are you even LOOKING AT? Kobe got a reasonable number of steals, but you are so drunk-out-of-your-mind-sounding right now that I almost can’t acknowledge that statement except to say that I am so so afraid for you to someday become a politician.

    You: “how do i compare those stats, especially given that i have only seen the city and the nets play once during the regular season (both losses)?”

    Me: Just listen to yourself. YOU COMPARE ‘THOSE STATS’ LIKE ANYONE WITH ANY UNDERSTANDING OF STATISTICS COMPARES ANY STATISTICS. FIRST, YOU READ THEM. THEN, YOU JUMP BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN THE MOST INTERESTING AND TELLTALE ELEMENTS OF THE STATS, COMPARING THEM TO EACH OTHER, FORMING IDEAS IN YOUR MIND, MAKING RATIONAL JUDGMENTS, INCORPORATING THE DEFINITIONS OF WHAT THE STATS REPRESENT INTO YOUR STREAM OF THOUGHT. “What’s a rebound?”, ask yourself. “Ah, so Points Per Game is the AVERAGE of how may points said player scored in each game he played.” OH. MY. TODD. BRIAN. Really? Really?!?!?

    Anyway, I have to go shower after reading that post. In broken glass and sandpaper.

    P.S. In Camby’s defense, you can’t make any kind of statement against how effective an offensive player he is when 2 of the top 10 scorers in the NBA are in your starting lineup (Anthony: 28.9, Iverson: 26.3). In fact, an analyst could argue that by even scoring as much as he did, with as little a part of the offensive strategy that he was, it almost proves that he’s a good offensive player, kids.

  10. I totally ate those salaries up like Junior Mints baby. Thank you SO MUCH.

    J

  11. even though it doesn’t need mentioning, since the whole world can just read his stuff, brian is the funniest person i’ve ever met except for joel mchale from the soup. and maybe ellen degeneres. but again, it’s totally obvious that he’s the funniest person on this blog (especially including rogue commenters). seriously. dallin oaks? parley pratt? hornacek? did you learn those jokes when you were “serving” in brazil? are you wearing the soccer jersey that you bought when you were down there? there’s little room for good humor in the comments section when we’ve got that sort of garbage lurking around.

    here’s what i really want to say: the mvp award is a popularity contest. and it’s a joke. but so are stats. david m (is the m for money now?) mentioned that since kobe doesn’t get steals that he’s not that good of a defender. do you watch basketball? or do you just look at the box score the next day? it’s cool if you do. that’s what i do. except that i realize that stats don’t keep track of most things that happen in games. like lee said, there’s times when a player ends up with good stats after a bad night. and that happens like every night.

    iverson is under 6’0″. it says a lot about you, d-maury, that you believe anything nba.com says. have you ever looked at that guy? he’s not six feet.

    my vote would be for duncan to be the mvp of the season. he knows all the angles.

  12. That’s cute Aaron. I bet you two are related, or boyfriend and boyfriend or something. That just reminded me of Zach Braff in Garden State. It was really sweet. I sighed.

    Maybe Brian is funny. Everyone keeps saying that he is, so it’s probably true. I’ve only read about 25 things he’s written so far though, so I can’t really definitively argue against, or for it. Or maybe I didn’t catch on to something that was supposed to be funny, and missed the opportunity of a lifetime, who knows. I never said he was, or wasn’t. All I said was that some of the things he was asserting about the current state of the National Basketball Association and basketball in general were ludicrous.

    You know what though, after what you just wrote, you kind of sound like you grew up on the same farm? It’s probably not even your fault.

    I didn’t ‘learn’ those jokes. They weren’t “jokes” really anyway. They were me entertaining myself and make-believing, and to be honest it was really really fun. Being J-Horn. I’m sorry if you felt like it was at your expense, or Brian’s.

    Pretty much my entire reading blogs in general in the last few weeks has been about that, self-entertainment. Sorry you had to be exposed to it if it bothered you that much.

    And don’t worry, I’m wrapping up my unwelcomed commenting foray, should be out of your blogs and hair soon I promise. I apologize if I’ve offended you by being more accurate and knowledgeable on basketball than you are, it was never the intent.

    Do you guys EVEN REALIZE how insane some of the stuff you’re typing sounds?

    Aaron: “iverson is under 6′0″. it says a lot about you, d-maury, that you believe anything nba.com says. have you ever looked at that guy? he’s not six feet.”

    FIRST OF ALL. Holy CRAP. The NBA takes regular, legitimate, scientifically-precise, regulated measurements of NBA players’ heights and weights, and then publishes them in a variety of ways: on their web site in a publicly-accessible, OFFICIAL database. Passively, by making that information available to trading card companies and video game makers. Audibly, by announcing the players’ measurements at the beginnings of games.

    SECOND OF ALL. Holy SHIT! Have I LOOKED AT THE GUY? HOW RIDICULOUS DOES THAT SOUND. “Have you looked at Manute Bol? He’s WAY over 7’7″ tall. He’s at least 9 or 10 thousand feet tall.”

    Are you seriously saying that by looking at someone you can more effectively determine how tall they are than by the measurements taken by professional measure-ers? Yikes Aaron. Yikes for your children.

    To answer your question, in case you’re legitimately curious: yes, I watch basketball.

    In fact, I use the search and scheduling functionality of my coaxial-connected Windows Media Center computer that records every NBA game I want it to, including all of the playoffs, into portable video files on my computer that I can then consume later, at my candy ass leisure.

    Meaning I also get to skip all of the commercials, half-time shows, free-throws, and time outs I want to. Meaning I can watch more games in less time, and pause it on statistics screens to really analyze and understand the data. Or watch Baron Davis dunk on Link-O’s face as many times as my instant-replaying whims dictate. It’s really really great.

    Up until the conference finals, I’d watched the vast majority of every playoff game this year, but won’t be any longer. I’m not really interested in any of the current teams now that Ben Wallace left Detroit. I like Deron Williams, but not enough to sit through seeing the freakshow known as Kirelinko any more. Though Boozer has been pretty swank to watch in this year’s playoffs.

    Moving on, no. You’re wrong. Kobe is NOT THAT GOOD OF A DEFENDER.

    Erin: “david m … mentioned that since kobe doesn’t get steals that he’s not that good of a defender.”

    Where the heck do you get off? DON’T PUT WORDS IN OTHER PEOPLE’S MOUTHS, IT’S RUDE. Brian said he was AS GOOD (relatively) AS CAMBY, WHICH WAS SILLY. Then, I COMPLIMENTED HIM ON HIS REASONABLE STEAL QUOTIENT as a HIGHLIGHT of his defense, NOT SAID THAT HE DOESN’T GET THEM.

    He’s not bad at defense, I never said he was. But he by no means excels at it. Similar to you and correct grammar and capitalization. Don’t be offended or defend yourself, I’m just kidding.

    If he did improve his defense (and maybe work on his shot selection) he’d have a serious shot at becoming the greatest basketball player that I’ve ever seen in the NBA. And I would marry him.

    Anyway, I had a great time kids. Good luck to every last one of you.

  13. Aaron: “except that i realize that stats don’t keep track of most things that happen in games.”

    Jeff: Wow. You must have some pretty cool off-court stuff going on during the games you’ve seen, because basically what statistics are is EXACTLY WTF HAPPENS IN GAMES.

    Brian had a partial point when he said that there are some vital elements that aren’t recorded and can be important in valuation of players’ performances, but you make it sound like stats have nothing to even do with effing basketball.

    You kids so crazy. Please change. I’m leaving with D. Au revoir.

  14. first, please keep commenting. we like comments, especially ones that disagree with us. that’s the whole point. that different people watch sports differently and it’s cool. i mean, we all like sports, so it’s nice. i hope you keep commenting, really.

  15. Oops. Sorry I spelled it Erin up there. Freudian I bet.

    – D!!!

  16. i was wrong about nba.com. someone there knows iverson is under six feet.

    http://www.nba.com/history/allstar/recap_2001.html

    but i don’t think i’m wrong about it. basketball is just a package to be marketed and so they tell the stories in a consumable way. i wouldn’t call it scientific. big deal. iverson wanted to be six feet. i don’t blame him. i would want to be six feet as well, if i was in the nba — which is a joke if you’ve seen me play. one time i had a dream that i was on the jazz with ostertag. me and him were best friends and we’d hang out after games. in my dreams he was always a good listener and a supportive friend. after tough practices with jerry sloan, he’d encourage me to keep trying. i wish he was still in the league.

  17. i’d spell it erin, too. if i was differently abled.

  18. The only problem with your comments is that they are idiotic. Leadro Barbosa? He’s cool, but I doubt he’ll ever start at PG on a contender.

    Your list of people who deserve the MVP more than Dirk, this one:
    1. Marcus Camby
    2. Shawn Marion
    3. Amare Stoudamire
    4. Jason Kidd
    5. Baron Davis
    6. Tim Duncan
    is ridiculous. Only one out of those six (Duncan) even deserves to be mentioned in the MVP discussion.

  19. maybe jason kidd too.

  20. Maybe more than anyone else on the list (besides Duncan), but I still wouldn’t even think about him being my MVP.

  21. Hey Lee, thanks for re-listing my list of people who are, statistically, more-deserving of the MVP award than Nowitzki.

    It’s really awesome to watch you guys read posts and totally comprehend them, and then respond intelligently.

    Ironically, every single one of those players on my ‘ridiculous’ list except one made it past the first round of playoffs. I can’t remember, did Dirk? I can’t remember, was he pretty much singlehandedly responsible for the greatest upset in playoff history? Probably not. But kind of. The Warriors won their 4 games by an average of almost 15 points. And against the totally-deserving MVP. I know! Crazy right?!?!

    Anyway, really really good reasoning and logic on your part. Total 100% props. I was really persuaded by your argument by the way that it was full of ANY INFORMATION AT ALL ABOUT ANYTHING.

    Yeah, you were totally right. Dirk totally OWNED this year. Almost 25 points a game. ALMOST double digits rebounding. CAREER YEAR. MVP YEAR. What a huge contribution. Dirk totally deserves MVP. You’re so right, and basically, I am SO WRONG. You obviously really know what you’re talking about.

    Thanks. Really. I mean it.

  22. first off, i should definitively state that i hope to never grow up or become mature unless the standards for growing up and maturing are used strictly in a biological sense.

    second, good defenses doesn’t always show up in the stats. you can shut down your man and play great help defense without ever recording a block, steal or rebound. kobe is a great defender in that he’s quick, long, athletic and strong — meaning he’s a great perimeter defender and he’s usually bigger than his man so he can handle his man in the post. and it’s not just me who thinks so. hasn’t he been on the all-nba first-team multiple times? of course, that doesn’t prove anything. so i don’t know.

    i do think marcus camby is a great player and totally under-rated offensively. i think he’s only gotten better with the addition of iverson (once everyone got healthy and they figured out how to play together). and he has sweet tattoo’s and an cool looking shot.

    i love stats. or rather i has a nostalgic disposition to consume stats. i also think that stats can be dangerous. often they’re used without context and selectively. but they’re probably the best tool we have to compare players given that we don’t watch (and remember) every game.

    finally, i like basketball when cool stuff happens. by cool stuff, i mean the unexpected and improvised shit that blows me (and possibly only me) away. this is why iverson is my favorite player off all time.

    finally for real, i never get my feelings hurt online. so feel free to comment as much as you want and feel free to call me on whatever using any kind of rhetorical device you want.

    and aaron is my brother and we used to have bunk-beds. that’s kind of like dating.

  23. Fun. I don’t watch or understand basketball enough to weigh in on the MVP debate, but I’ve got to say that taking heights and weights listed on official league sites as gospel is laughable. As Aa(E)ro(i)n pointed out, players/teams/the league skew measurements to better fit a desired image. In basketball, there is a certain stigma to being sub-six feet that players such as Iverson don’t want attached to their image. Same goes for the other end of six feet. I understand that Garnett is actually seven feet tall but didn’t want to be known as a ‘seven-footer,’ so he’s listed, courtesy of nba.com, as 6’11”.
    It happens in all sports. It’s called listed size v. playing size. You want an eye-opener, watch the NFL combine. Players are weighed and measured in front of teams and media and you’d be surprised at how rarely these actual measurements match their ‘legitimate, scientifically-precise’ measurements as posted on their college’s ‘publicly-accessible, OFFICIAL database.’ For whatever reason, cornerbacks are always listed as being taller than they actually are, defensive tackles as heavier and so on. And, it’s a safe bet to assume professional leagues do the same thing for their players. Or maybe not. Maybe these college can’t afford highly scientifical equipment like measuring tape and scales and have to eye-ball things. But, if you choose to believe everything the nba feeds you, go ahead. I’m sure they are always forthright and without agenda.

  24. One F, you don’t sound paranoid at all.

    I readily admit that what you’ve just written is a really fun fantasy, or short story if you fancy yourself an author, but, it’s still honk sauce and tortillas.

    Just for fun, let’s pretend you’re right for a second. Being that we’re NBA fans, if not enthusiasts, isn’t it our ethical duty to then ABIDE by the false heights and weights that they’ve worked so hard to publicize and standardize?

    Don’t we owe it to them, and to Iverson, to pretend like he IS his farce, self-chosen height? So that, even if subconsciously, we don’t apply that sub 6 foot stigma to his image in our psyches and make all of his exaggeration(s) vain? I think we do. So, whether in reality, our your sweet alter-dimension, Iverson, to me at least, is 6 feet tall, MINIMUM. (In your fantasy world, to me, well, maybe he’s 6 foot and 1/2 inches, and maybe I round up, just because ever since I learned about rounding {2nd grade maybe?} it’s all I can even think about. Rounding and estimating. How come no one ever blogs about those two heavenly gifts? They’re pretty much the most fun a girl can have without taking her clothes off. So, yeah, Iverson’s “really” 6’1″ now, as far as I’m concerned.)

    Thanks C-Lif, for enlightening us.

  25. I haven’t looked at the stats you posted. I like stats A LOT, but I didn’t see how it was relevant. I still don’t.

  26. Good point. Current-year player statistics are totally irrelevant to a discussion about which player deserves the MVP award for that year. You should definitely be writing about sports.

    I am now 3/4 convinced the the last 10 or 11 posts from you guys have been a big, collaborative, April-fools-esque joke at my expense. If so, and I’m REALLY REALLY hoping so, THAT IS SO, SO GOOD. I’M LAUGHING MY ASS OFF. AND YOU ARE ALL MY NEW HEROES.

  27. Mine weren’t jokes. I’m really getting a tattoo of Oki and Dice-K holding hands, and the Indians suck this year, although my brother did finally get a hit last game (even though the Indians still got creamed and my dad was mad that the guy he hate’s son was such a good pitcher for the Rangers).

    But maybe you weren’t talking to me.

  28. Of course I’m paranoid, duh. The NBA and their false measures, the MLB and their satellites. Watch your back!

  29. Whit, I didn’t read any of the non-basketball ones, and you weren’t included in the hopeful accusation. And every time I see that picture it makes me want Rolos, even if that’s not what you’re eating.

    Your best friend
    David

  30. Then who is supposed to be the MVP? I haven’t looked at the statistics, so you’ll have to add them all up and tell me.

  31. dave,
    why are you so defensive, man? i understand that you think you’re smarter and funnier than us, so it must be frustrating that no one here cares that you’re smarter or funnier than us. you don’t have to try so hard. just focus on your jokes and don’t worry about making us know you’re right all the time.

    and, about the jokes, i think it would help if your jokes were occasionally self-deprecating, a little more absurd, moved away from phrases like honk sauce and tortillas, and if your sarcasm was a little more subtle. while this isn’t the kind of humor that finds it’s way onto network television, it would win over some of the people at the blog.

  32. Been there, done that, my friend.

  33. Bry Bry. I don’t think I’ve once tried to be funny on your blogs. Jeff Hornacek wasn’t an attempt at humor. Honk sauce and tortillas neither, it’s a common expression between my sibling and I that we use in place of ‘bullshit’. There, now I went and said it.

    Also, I’m far less concerned with “winning over some of the people at the blog” than I am with helping you guys learn some really important basic concepts of basketball. And I wasn’t defensive about anything. Was I? If so, I missed it. And I’ve’nt ‘tried so hard’ at all. I literally type at over 100 wpm and think pretty quickly, so none of the posts (except the once where I compiled the official statistics for Lee’s benefit) took me even more than 5 or 10 minutes, which is well worth my time if I can help even one kid understand proper analysis.

    Thanks Bri.

  34. Oh, and I’m not smarter than probably the vast majority of you kids. Quite the contrary.

    I’ve been in college for like 100 years, and literally got just about straight Fs at BYU for 2 straight years. Beyond that, my sister has called me stupid MULTIPLE TIMES over the last 24. My grandpa at LEAST once. If anything I envy you guys, and your fancy, glamorous, blog-worthy lifestyles.

    Don’t you EVER stop. EVER.

  35. i think i’m beginning to understand our problem. this blog exists primarily to tell jokes. i admit that they’re mostly bad jokes, but i’m a big believer in quality growing out of quantity. so whatever.

    so our sport’s analysis is only a vehicle for our jokes. in other words, we use stats selectively and are constantly making things up. in this way, we’re like sportscenter and sports talk-radio except we’re funnier and aren’t trying to sell you any products.

    past that, we’re only casual sports fans (with limited exceptions) and are interested in how people who don’t fit into the demographic major sports are marketed to view sports.

    if this blog has a goal, it’s that anybody, regardless of their analytical skills or sports knowledge, can write fantastic pieces about sports.

  36. david m-

    it’s not that we’re saying that you say that you’re smarter and better than us. it’s that you talk in a demeaning way to everyone who disagrees with you. we don’t dislike it — like brian said, we make fun of ourselves much more than you make fun of us. but the point is that if you’re going to take a dickhead approach to commenting, don’t get your feelings hurt when we return the favor. it’s fine that we all disagree about sports “analysis.” and we’re going to make a lot of (bad) jokes about our differences.

    the point of our blog is to tell (lame) jokes and to provide an alternative to just listening to espn or nba.com. the point of your analysis is to eat up whatever espn or nba.com or steve kerr tell you and then throw it up in our comments section. that’s good for us since most of us don’t pay attention to espn or nba.com or steve kerr. how can we when we don’t trust what they say? so keep the cat vomit coming — i’m sure you’ll eventually be able to help one of us “kids” to understand “proper analysis.”

    back to your list of mvp candidates. shawn marion and amare stoudamire did not have mvp years. don’t get me wrong — i love shawn marion and hate amare stoudamire. but just because they’re on one of my favorite teams doesn’t mean they’re mvp’s. marcus camby is sweet and he more than deserved defensive player of the year. and i like that you’re really trying to get people to realize what an important piece to the nuggets he was. baron davis was incredible in the last month of the season and through the first two rounds of the playoffs. but that’s not going to win you mvp. i personally think that the only people who had the same or a better year than dirk nowitzki are t-duncan, k-bryant, j-kidd, and s-nash. i think tim duncan should probably have won it, but he’s already got a couple. but you can make a pretty good argument for any of those guys, including nowitzki. he choked in the playoffs, but he rarely choked in the regular season. again, playoffs don’t matter when you’re awarding mvp. only finals mvp.

  37. I actually think many of D-Money’s (allegedly nonexistent) jokes are pretty good. The non-sports-related ones, anyway.

  38. Oh Air, can I call you that? I never got my feelings hurt. If I did that would really be something. Something to props about.

    I wish I could give professional commentators or NBA.com credit for my views and “opinions” on sports and its players, but honestly if I watch an NBA game with the volume up, I find myself arguing with about 65% of all of the non-factual statements and assertions that the commentators make.

    There are some exceptions. Al McCoy, for example, knows what the hell he’s talking about. He my boy.

    Bill Walton, on the other hand, I assume, is usually talking in cryptic analogies about cooking or religion or sex most of the time, or else is just plain confused about basketball. He’s more of a gimmick-entator anyway, so it doesn’t even matter.

    I use NBA.com for its statistics. Its player detail. Personal, often heartwarming stories about the players I love, or hate, and milestones in their lives and careers. Not, for learning about basketball. I watch basketball, play basketball, and analyze basketball, to learn about basketball. Speaking of which, I’m working on a web site to help organize community basketball for people that don’t have friends, or people of a similar skill level, to play with.

    Moving on, there’s no possible way you could make fun of each other more than I make fun of you guys.

    I even read some of your quotes to my long-distance non-internetting friends and we have a great chuckle. Lee’s been the shining star of most of those conversations.

    When I make fun of you, though, it’s not in a mean way. Picture it, especially the purely sarcastic responses, in a nice, ‘gay’ (please don’t rant about how I should have more homosexuals, I love them and am one), high-pitched, soft, caring and flirty voice. With a big, kind smile on my face.

    It’s really fun, demonstrative sarcasm. For me at least.

    It’s not meant to be insulting, except that I only do it to show how off something or someone was being. And I do it to myself, and my family, and strangers, and love interests, and almost anyone that provides the opportunity to without the risk of sabotaging some professional environment or their clearly-sensitive feelings (you guys didn’t seem hyper sens).

    To be honest, reading some of my responses to Lee’s comments just now made me break up laughing. I’ve never even seen sarcasm like that. It was so enjoyable for me.

    Quote: “Good point. Current-year player statistics are totally irrelevant to a discussion about which player deserves the MVP award for that year. You should definitely be writing about sports.” That KILLS me everytime I read it. Oh my Todd, I sound totally narcissistic right now. Good thing none of you can see how handsome or wealthy I am over the internet.

    Anyway, although I can’t agree with your acceptance of Nowitz as a legitimate candidate, I can see your view, and understand it. All I was presenting was that on merits of STATISTICS ALONE, that list of players outperformed Dirk. That’s it. As an example. On other merits, I could make an argument for a lot more players than those.

    I don’t get why you hate Amare though. He’s SO talented, getting better EVERY YEAR, has a great attitude, and isn’t afraid to step up and face music. I literally cheered with excitement when he called the Spurs dirty. I’d been saying that for years. Bowen, Horry, Ginobli CITY. I hate those guys. And I used to love Robert Horry. Especially in video games with a clutch attribute. Then I watched him closely.

    On top of that Amare Stoudamire was the comeback story of the year. He played in 3 games last year, 3! No one (including his teammates) expected him to explode like he did this year. A hell of a lot of players come back with 60% of the ability they started with. All NBA 1st team, kids. And it was his 4th REAL season in the league. That’s incredible to me, and he’s so deserving of any acclaim I’ve ever heard delivered.

    I think Marion’s great, but I really really wish he’d change his shooting form. It’s nasty to watch, and makes me cringe even at the freethrow line. That said, it’s literally like MAGIC to me that he shoots as high of a percentage as he does, especially from the 3-point line, with that nasty ass style.

    I’m all in favor of non-traditional releases, Barkley, Grant, mine in the 5th grade. Marion’s just looks haphazard and gamblesome. But I still like him. More than a friend even. That’s what relationships are about, compromise.

    As long as you guys know that I think that Nowitzki is not even one of the top 8 forwards in the league, and probably the most mismatched awarding of the MVP title in the past decade, I guess I’ll be able to sleep tonight.

    Hugs and kisses,
    Marv Albert-you-ten-dollars-I-like-sex-rougher-than-you-do.

    (http://www.courttv.com/archive/casefiles/marv/marvalbert.html)

  39. Yikes. I just read that crap up. LONG, sorry. I need to get control of myself.

    And I meant to type ‘respect for homosexuals.’ Whoops.

  40. I just found out that I have been getting made fun of. I know I’m usually pretty good at picking that sort of stuff up, but a phone call or a text message from one of you making sure I knew would’t have hurt (especially not as much as the pain I am feeling now).
    Demon reminds me of Austin66. Seriously. He makes the same type of odd arguments and insists they are fact, but they don’t make sense.
    So, you don’t think Nowitski is the MVP. Same with most basketball analysts. I, on the other hand, think he isn’t a horrible choice for the MVP. Not my choice (Duncan), but not a horrible choice.
    According to the stats, though, he isn’t the MVP. Then again, according to the stats, Michael Jordan should have never won an MVP. I just looked at his stats and the only great numbers he put up were his scoring numbers.
    D- According to the stats, who is the MVP?

  41. You may like Sasha, but is he really better than Curtis Borchardt? Come on.

  42. Actually, Michael Jordan was one of the league’s leaders in steals for most of his career. He averaged more rebounds than a lot of forwards (his CAREER average, 6.2, was only 2.7 RPG less than Nowitzki’s “MVP year”: 8.9), and even won defensive player of the year once. His overall stats are some of the best-balanced and most impressive in history.

    He also posted generally impressive assist-per-game averages for a non-point, as well as great free-throw shooting percentage before everyone somehow became excellent free-throw shooters.
    He made big blocks relatively frequently, often in super-clutch situations, every single season. Basically, according to his regular-season stats, he was an ideal candidate for MVP on a yearly-basis.

    Here’s a link to his career stats in case you were looking at the wrong numbers:
    http://www.nba.com/playerfile/michael_jordan/index.html

    Here’s a link to his draft class, in case anyone’s curious:
    http://www.sportsstats.com/jazzyj/greats/84/index.html

    I heard the Trailblazers’ decision-maker was lynched in cold blood by a swarm of angry fans when he chose Sam Bowie over arguably the greatest shooting guard to ever play.

    Opinion time, since we’re talking Jordan. I actually would’ve liked to have seen Jordan play point guard for more of his career. He was a fantastic ball-handler, had great peripheral awareness, and could obviously take 99/100 players in every one-on-one and a lot of one-on-two situations, which would’ve been even more exciting for him if he was the primary ball handler. So many options, so little time.

    Secretly, I always thought less of Jordan for playing SG instead of SF (or PG, given that he had the hands). SG is my least-favorite position and, even though a lot of really great players have used and abused it, always seems like the cop out position to me. There’s a reason it’s called ‘Shooting Guard,’ it’s probably the most role-centric and limiting position in modern basketball strategy. Obviously, if the guy’s a Vince Carter, you can just give him the ball and forget about pre-choreographed plays half the time, which isn’t what I’m saying. There are definitely great SGs that can do a lot of great things.

    Jordan was the same height as Charles Barkley, possibly slightly taller, and a hell of a lot quicker and more agile. In my experience with basketball, weight/size can play a big part of basketball ONLY IF you don’t know how to handle it or how the fatass player (Shaq for example) uses it. I’ve dominated great players that were a few inches taller and 50 lbs. heavier, with similar speed ‘ratings’, just by not being stupid.

    Like someone pointed out, Iverson is a little girl physiologically, but can still work his body to dominate the paint when he wants to. I always wondered how much of an advantage over a lot of his defenders Jordan’s frequently large height differential was. But let’s just keep that between, you, me, and J-Horn. It would’ve been fantastic to see Jordan go one-on-one defensively against guys like Shawn Kemp, Chris Webber, and [some other appropriate era’d small forward here, besides Chris Mullin].

  43. I blocked Michael Jordan once. HOLLA ATCHA BOY.

  44. Damn. Someone’s PHP is a little suck ass this afternoon.

  45. You guys, get this. I just realized that my posts are boring. I’ll try to keep them under 75 words from now on and/or itemize key points as lists instead of just typing out thought streams AFAIC.

    Also, is there some way we can turn on the preservation of line breaks in the settings or something?

  46. Yeah, those were the stats I was looking at. Not too impressed. The difference between 8.9 rebounds and 6.2 is probably the equivolent of 5-7 ppg. Looking at those stats, I can’t believe that anyone thinks he was the best player ever.

    Jordan was the perfect SG. I don’t think being the primary ball-handler would have suited him as well as SG was.


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